Texas Presbyterian Camp Supporting the Religion/Ideology of the Enemy

Just two days ago we learned that a Church in Connecticut allowed its basement to be turned into a makeshift Mosque. Now we see the same type of irresponsible behavior taking place in Texas. The Presbyterian Mo-Ranch Camp in Hunt Texas, is hosting the MYNA Winter Leadership Retreat next week. The retreat is being sponsored by Islamic Society of North America (ISNA).

Texas Presbyterian Camp Stands Against Anti-Muslim Bigotry

(Dec 15, 2010) ISNA thanks Dr. David Jordan, President of the Presbyterian Mo-Ranch Camp in Hunt, Texas, for taking a stand against anti-Muslim bigotry.

Mo-ranch will host the 2010 MYNA Winter Leadership Retreat next week. In anticipation of this event, Mo-ranch began receiving emails and letters accusing them of being un-Christian, un-Patriotic, and supporting terrorism by hosting an ISNA event.

Actually they are being un-Christian because Islam call for the dominance, and final destruction of Christianity.

Koran verse 009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Book 37, Number 4310:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.

Supporting a pro-Sharia organization like the ISNA is as un-patriotic as it gets. The following topics of interest, are from an upcoming ISNA conference.

Application of Fiqh in to our daily lives (Fiqh is the knowledge and understanding of Islamic Law)
• Integrating Islamic teachings into our community service projects
• Seeking knowledge in Islam to improve every aspect of our lives
Using the life of the Prophet to guide our own

• Facing tribulations with patience and prayer

More from the ISNA.

In response to these allegations, Dr. Jordan issued a press release on Dec 14 to clearly articulate the absurdity of these claims.

ISNA urges you to view the full press release by Dr. Jordan below, and to send your note of thanks to him and to Mo-ranch at djordan@moranch.com. Please also copy ISNA on your email at sthompson@isna.net so we can stay tuned to your words of gratitude!

Sorry ISNA, I am urging all the readers here to send an email of discontent to Dr. Jordan.

Here is Dr. Jordan’s press release.

Statement from Dr. David W. Jordan, President of Mo-Ranch
December 14, 2010

Contrary to some claims currently being circulated, Presbyterian Mo-Ranch Camp and Conference Center is not hosting a Muslim terrorist group later this month nor a group training Muslim youth to become jihadists. Nor would Mo-Ranch ever host such a group.

I believe you Dr. but right in your first paragraph you show that you are uniformed on the threat of Islam. Non-violent Muslims like the ISNA who use our laws against us to slowly takeover from within, are even greater threat to life as we know it than potentially violent Muslims.
Germany finally figured this out and took action.

Germany Applies Anti-Nazi Laws on Two Non-Violent Pro-Sharia Islamic Groups!

Back to Dr. Jordan’s press release.

Mo-Ranch is providing Christian hospitality to a group of Muslim youth sponsored by the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA). For several years now, this organization has held retreats at YMCA camps and the facilities of various religious denominations across the country. Consistent with Mo-Ranch’s values as a Presbyterian center, we do also welcome people from other Christian groups and from time to time members of non-Christian faith traditions in support of better interfaith communication, especially in these times of great misunderstanding among these American religious communities. In so doing, Mo-Ranch is being neither un-Christian nor unpatriotic as some recent phone calls and e-mails have alleged.

No, you are promoting a religion/ideology that opposes yours, and just about everything America stands for, and there is no misunderstanding here. Islam condones kidnapping lying, perpetual war, slavery and rape. Are you implying that Jesus would have condoned these acts? I don’t see anything Christian like about those actions. If you would like why don’t you or one of your “friends” from the ISNA drop by, and we can debate these facts? You will finally see what they have hid from you.

Dr. Jordan said:

ISNA is a prominent organization within the Muslim community in the United States. Its leaders and members are in frequent dialogue and cooperative endeavors with the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), other Protestant denominations, and Catholic and Jewish groups. There have been many co-sponsored multi-faith conferences in recent years. Last summer, an ISNA representative attended the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) for fruitful discussion of critical issues, and ISNA is regarded by our denomination as an important partner in Christian-Muslim cooperative ventures. ISNA is not designated as a terrorist organization by the State Department, Internal Revenue Service or Treasury Department and often participates in conferences and other meetings sponsored by agencies of our national government.

Them being a prominent organization and not being designated as a terrorist organization, does not mean they are not a threat to America. The Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) is another prominent organization. Here is a statement from one of their founders.

Omar Ahmad
Co-Founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations
President and CEO of Silicon Expert Technologies.
Former Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP) Officer.

“Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam …Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the
only accepted religion on Earth.”

Did you know that Ibrahim Hooper, another co-founder of CAIR recently spoke at the ISNA’s 2010 annual conference? One of the other speakers at that event was Brooklyn NY Imam Siraj Wahhaj, who in the past had made the following statement.

“…And [Allah] declared ‘Whoever is at war with my friends, I declare war on them.’ … Your true friend is Allah, the messenger, and those who believe…. Hear what I’m telling you well. The Americans are not your friends … The Canadians are not your friends … The Europeans are not your friends. Your friend is Allah, the Messenger and those who believe. These people will never be satisfied with you until you follow their religion …”

Dr. can you honestly look in the mirror now and say to yourself that the ISNA is a true friend to you, America, and Christianity?

The last thing the Doctor had to say was this.

Last year, another respected Muslim group met at Mo-Ranch and participated in an informative and positive dialogue with a number of Presbyterians in our county. The trustees and administration of Mo-Ranch view such groups who occasionally visit our center as a positive outreach and expression of gracious hospitality, a fundamental Christian ethic.

I have just two questions for you. The first being, do you think that you are the first Christian that has thought of having interfaith talks with Muslims? The second being, interfaith talks between Muslims and non-Muslims have been going on for centuries. So how come Christians are still being persecuted across the Islamic world? Having interfaith meetings with Muslims instead of speaking out against Islam, is doing more harm than good. As you are only spreading false hope. I hope you will reevaluate your relationship with the ISNA. Have a good day.

Please take the time to send Dr. Jordan an email at djordan@moranch.com.

Thank you.

Warn the World



61 comments for “Texas Presbyterian Camp Supporting the Religion/Ideology of the Enemy

  1. Tamara
    December 15, 2010 at 9:42 pm

    pure dhimmitude!!

    • Tonto
      December 16, 2010 at 8:55 pm

      Just more “living proof” that we will NEVER run out of assholes on this planet. Bless their pea pickin’ hearts. Darwin Awards are coming up soon, maybe these folks are making a “bid” on first place.

  2. admin
    December 15, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    Here is my email to Dr. Jordan.

    Hello Dr. Jordan,

    Tonight I read your press release about your camp hosting the upcoming MYNA Winter Leadership Retreat next week. After reading the press release it was obvious that you are being misled on the ISNA, and Islam itself. So I wanted to point out some facts on both.

    (I then posted this article in its entirety)

    Thanks for your time,


    • Dan
      December 16, 2010 at 6:59 am

      Guess its time for me to write another letter. It will be interesting to see if Dr Jordan is more willing to debate this issue with another Pastor than Rev. Briggs was.

      • admin
        December 16, 2010 at 9:25 am

        All we can do is try.

  3. Delbert
    December 15, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    You people are horribly misguided. I assume you live by the question you seem to ask yourselves: Who would Jesus hate?

    • admin
      December 15, 2010 at 10:13 pm

      Instead of throwing around labels, why don’t you prove me wrong about Islam? Are you implying that Jesus would have approved of Islam which calls for the dominance of Christians, and allows slavery?

      • Abdulmalik Saafir
        December 15, 2010 at 10:49 pm

        I like to mention here that history is documented and all we need is to have an open mind to investigate and we will find the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. This is 2010 and to find after all these years their are still victims of Artificial Mentalities. When we really discover the whole truth it will knock out falsehood brains and allow the mind, body and soul to grow and develop on the natural pattern the way The Lord designed it. We have all been victims of being taught and become pariots of the teachers while denying ourselves to study, investigate and analyze for ourselves and study a thing to is logical conclusion. My words to all is not become the victim of ignorance no matter how many degrees you may obtain we still can be ignorant to the ways of scripture. After all we call it a Universal message. In that word is Uni meaning One and Verse many one Verse. One Verse for One People called Humanity. We must not look so much at the physical but see ourselves as abstract beings inside of a house called a body. The soul is spiritual and not physical and needs a body or house to live in and transport it to different locations and to serve it and not destroy it. My message to you is to READ, READ, READ in the name of The Lord who created you and nourshised before entering the womb of your mother, while you were in the womb from stage to stage and then continued to nourshish you until somewhere you ate from the wrong tree. We must maintain our innocense as when we were babies where all children no matter their race or ethnicty they cry, laugh and play the same and with each other. It is not until the words enter the wet clay minds of that childs mind and souls and then take form and harden with poisen or humble with the truth to explore the wonderful world that The Lord created.

        • admin
          December 15, 2010 at 10:59 pm

          You type a lot but say nothing. The fact is that Islam calls for the dominance of Christians, as per Koran verse 9:29. This persecution of Christians across the Islamic world has been going on for centuries, and is still going on today. I can easily provide sources for this statement, if need be. The message of Islam is one that I and many others here will never accept. Is that clear to you?

          I suggest you start supplying some facts, otherwise you will not be here long.

        • December 16, 2010 at 9:14 am

          just who is your “Lord”? i notice he doesn’t have a name. Mine does. His name is God Almighty Yahweh Jehovah Jesus Christ Messiah. And allah is satan and mohammed was his misguided messenger. There can be no dialogue between the two.

          • Gloria
            December 16, 2010 at 10:26 am

            Amen! and this is what i would like to add there were not many waiting for the First time Yeshua came and there will not be many waiting for the Second Time Yeshua (Jesus) Returns “The KING of KINGS and The LORD of LORDS!!!”. Ecumenical unity with the Roman Catholic Church will and is bring on the anti-christ.

    • admin
      December 15, 2010 at 10:14 pm

      Were the Jews the “haters” for opposing Nazism?

      • boniferous
        December 19, 2010 at 9:36 pm

        Umm you’re right. Even scriptures state that we should not X tians should not be “unequally yoked” with non-believers. I mean, seriously, why do X tians think those who vehemently hate them are going to turn by osmosis when the real truth is, Islam is turning THEM. What’s the familiar quote or cliche “If you try to change the devil, the devil changes you.” The very group same would never allow a thief to live in their homes to proselytize to them. Where’s the common sense? Sheesh

    • Dan
      December 16, 2010 at 7:26 am


      I assume from your comment either you have never read the Holy Bible AND the Qur’an & the Hadith of Bukhari, or either you are a follower of Islam. If you had read the 2 Islamic books and the Holy Bible, you would not make such a misguided statement.

      1 John 2: 18-25

      Warnings Against Denying the Son
      18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
      20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[e] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

      24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

      2John 1:4-13
      4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

      7 I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what we[a] have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

      12 I have much to write to you, but I do not want to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.

      13 The children of your sister, who is chosen by God, send their greetings.

      How can any Christian read that, if they have read the Qur’an, and believe Islam is anything less than the antichrist? Muslims deny the Holy Trinity, in doing so, they are by Biblical definition the antichrist.

    • eib
      December 16, 2010 at 5:05 pm

      We have never accused Jesus of hating anyone.
      This site is about the elemental and existential threat posed by Islam against the West.
      If you had any knowledge of history and the Koran, you would understand this threat completely.

    • eib
      December 16, 2010 at 5:07 pm

      Also, you say we hate so that you can hate us with a clear conscience.
      How does your own hatred feel?
      How does submission feel?
      Because you have done both.
      When are you going to finally feel yourself to be subdued.

    • Tonto
      December 17, 2010 at 11:30 pm

      That sounds like it wasn’t thought completely through. Jesus was THE WORD MADE FLESH. He has angels at his beck and call…..what did He have to fear? We ain’t so lucky……or powerful. The muz jihadis have made 16,525 deadly attacks since 9/11/2001, and there is PROOF that mosques are centers for preaching hatred and jihad against “unbelievers”. Since the language of most mosques in the US is arabic, how are those dumb ass Christians supposed to know? But, there have been several apostates and others that understand the language that have reported the hate spewed in mosques….so stuff it dingbat. Your arguement is invalid.

    • miles
      December 19, 2010 at 12:27 pm

      Jesus did not hate, But he did say do not cast pearl befor swine,He did say if one among you ask for forgiveness to forgive them ,but if they keep repeating the sin cast them out from among your flock.
      The bible also says do not mingle the blood/unbelevers with belevers.

  4. Abdulmalik Saafir
    December 15, 2010 at 10:28 pm

    G’D Peace be unto you. As Salaam Alaikum

    Dear Dr. Jordan I want to humbly thank G’D for leaders such as yourself in delivering the true message and hospitality and hard work in bringing dialouge of multi faith groups together in order that we may understand each other and not depise each other. Your work in the world is needed. I had the previledge to work with one of the worlds late reknown leader Imam W.D.Mohammed who began this task in 1976 when it was unpopular to most Muslims in America and abroad. This task is not an easy one because you have those on both sides looking at each other as enemies. It is a diabolical diversion to keep the religious communities divided and blind to the reality of the truth. You have taken the stance of the righteous followers of The Almighty to attempt to bring peace and harmony to America and the global world. I support your efforts and if I can assist you in any way please let me know. Many Muslims have forgotten that when Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) own people saught to kill him and his followers, he requested the assistance of a Christian King in Abssenia and that Christian King Negus protected and his followers from any type of persecution. You Dr. Jordan remind me of the true Christians that practice their faith. May The Lord Almighty continue to Bless you and your mission with unlimited bounties and good in this world and the hereafter.

    • admin
      December 15, 2010 at 10:37 pm

      Interfaith dialogue between Muslims and Christians has been going on for centuries. Yet the Islamic world agenda continues to move forward, and the Islamic persecution of Christians also continues. Islam is what divides, and of course you support Dr. Jordan. He is helping Islam advance in America. Do you condemn Sharia Law?

    • admin
      December 15, 2010 at 10:46 pm

      Saafir said: “The Lord Almighty continue to Bless you and your mission with unlimited bounties and good in this world and the hereafter.”

      Being a Christian will Dr. Jordan be in heaven with Muslims?

      Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 54, Number 487:
      Narrated Abu Huraira:

      Allah’s Apostle said, “Your (ordinary) fire is one of 70 parts of the (Hell) Fire.” Someone asked, “O Allah’s Apostle This (ordinary) fire would have been sufficient (to torture the unbelievers),” Allah’s Apostle said, “The (Hell) Fire has 69 parts more than the ordinary (worldly) fire, each part is as hot as this (worldly) fire.”

      I guess not.

      • Abdulmalik Saafir
        December 15, 2010 at 11:00 pm

        I am not the final Judge. Allah says in your Holy Qur’an if you READ, READ, READ!!! That He would judge all who say they believe by their own books. I don’t know where Dr. Jordan, you or I will be. But I pray and ask Allah to forgive me of my faults and reward all that strive to do good. And that’s all people it didn’t say just Muslims. READ your book and comtemplate.

        • admin
          December 15, 2010 at 11:03 pm

          The Koran is not my book and I have read it. It sad that you obviously do not have the courage to question Islam. Did you miss this part?

          Koran verse 009.073
          YUSUFALI: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

        • admin
          December 15, 2010 at 11:06 pm

          I will ask you again, do you condemn Sharia Law?

        • admin
          December 15, 2010 at 11:17 pm

          Judging by your comment and your ducking of my question about Sharia Law, it is pretty obvious that you support Sharia. That makes you an enemy of America, and Christianity.

          Correct me if I am wrong.

        • Dan
          December 16, 2010 at 9:08 am

          Abdulmalik I have read The Holy Bible, studied, contemplated, and Prayed over it. I have also read Islams Holy Books. Islam’s Holy Books deny that Jesus is The Christ. This is what The Holy Bible says about that in 1 John 2 ” 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.”
          I will be Praying for you, Praying that God will open your heart to the love of Jesus Christ, and away from this evil that is Islam!

    • December 15, 2010 at 11:07 pm

      Piss off, arselifter and pester some other blog instead!

    • eib
      December 16, 2010 at 5:08 pm

      Interfaith dialogue:
      Christian: Islam is a great religion.
      Muslim: Islam is a great religion.
      End of dialogue.

  5. December 16, 2010 at 3:36 am

    One common humanity, all are equal in God’s eyes, right? All good people go to Paradise, right?


    2:161. Verily, those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers, it is they on whom is the Curse of Allâh and of the angels and of mankind, combined.

    9:30. And the Jews say: ‘Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allâh, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allâh. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allâh’s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

    Moe had a certain prophecy, relevant to this discussion, which most westerners do not know about. I will share it with you.

    Sahih Muslim 37.6666
    Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. ‘Umar b. Abd al-‘Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him).

  6. December 16, 2010 at 4:39 am

    Why are these Christians betraying Christ? Why don’t they just convert to Islam? at least that would be more honest than continually defending and appeasing muslims. Then they won’t be misleading other Christians about what Islam is really about. There are two faces of Islam. Muslims are hiding a big secret behind their taquiiyya. There aim is to control the world and force to convert, kill or enslave.
    These christian leaders have an obligation to research Islam and read the Q’ran before they lead their lambs to the slaughter. Then they would know that Mohammod/Islam is the anti-Christ.

  7. December 16, 2010 at 9:22 am

    you would be better off posting on an Islam friendly website. The only thing you will get here is an in your face condemnation of the words of your prophet. We are not potential proselytes for Islam because we can think. But if you would open your mind, you would finally learn truth. there is only one God. Mine or yours. Look at the fruit of each belief system and its history and tell me which one is best. READ your BIBLE. READ READ READ. and pray for honest understanding. Jesus has visited many Muslims in visions. I will pray He visits YOU.

  8. Finious
    December 16, 2010 at 9:51 am

    Our Christian history is a great scandal to the human race. Christianity has NOT been a religion of love, peace and justice.

    But as for these enemies of mine (Jesus Christ), who did not want me to reign
    over them, bring them here and slay them before me.(Bible: New Testament:Luke


    • admin
      December 16, 2010 at 10:03 am

      Wrong, that verse is about what a King said.


      Please do some research next time.

      Christians are not on a worldwide movement looking to subjugate all under religious laws, but Muslims are. How does you focusing on the past, deal with this problem?

      Thank you.

  9. Dan
    December 16, 2010 at 11:36 am

    Finious must be a troll, only a troll could misinterpet Luke 11:27 so bad. A muslim troll, or someone with absolutly NO BIBLICAL knowledge.

    This was merely a parable used by Jesus to teach. A way to teach us to use our God given gifts to benefit His Kingdom. This was NOT Jesus killing someone, or commanding ANYONE to kill.

    Looks like I need to add Finious to my Prayer list also!

  10. Chris
    December 16, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    Finious can’t distinguish between a Parable and a Command. Muslims would love to find Jesus behaving like Muhammad and ordering followers to kill people. It isn’t going to happen. Jesus told to his own disciple, “Put your sword back in its place. All who take the sword will die by the sword.” (Matthew 26:52) Jesus also predicted the blind submission to evil by Muslims: “The time will come when anyone who kills you will think that by doing this he is serving God. People will do these things to you because they have not known either God nor me.” (John 16:2-3) Finious’ ignorance is the real scandal.

    • Kenny
      December 18, 2010 at 6:38 pm

      OK wise one Chris. Jesus used parables to make a point. What was the point of that last line in the parable?

      The Bible and the Quran are both collections of ancient myths by people who thought the earth was the center of the universe. You can prove anything you want with scripture. You can even prove that if is moral to hate and kill by reading either the Quran or the Bible.

      • admin
        December 18, 2010 at 6:58 pm

        Christians are not on a worldwide religious movement looking to impose a barbaric set of religious laws, so if you want to talk about something that is not happening please do it somewhere else. This site is about the threat of Islam.

  11. New Crusader
    December 16, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    I realize that this was said to the Jewish religious leaders, but Dr. Jordan is practicing a similar deceit with the lives of others just as they were. It is truly a grievous shame. It is better to read the whole chapter.


    5“Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’

    27“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness

    Don’t misunderstand me please, I am merely trying to point out that they’re many who wear the clothes of Christianity but have no genuine relationship with the one named in the title. Just as this played well into the hands of evil then so it does today. Where ever Dr. Jordan may fit into this is not mine to judge, but it seems to me that more than a little work needs to be done in the whom am I honoring department.

  12. greg_o
    December 16, 2010 at 6:07 pm

    It is frustrating to note how many ‘mainline Christian churches cannot, or will not, see the evil of islam. They are as stupid as the Jews of Europe who thought that they were so gifted that the nazi machine would not harm them..They think: if we are good enough to the muzzies, then islam will see how good we are and leave us alone……or eat us last.
    This is part of the reason that I left lutheranism. The lutheran leadership just became ignorant and started teaching untruths about the Bible and the G_D of the universe.ie- to a gathering of homosexuals, this FEMALE lutheran preacher announced: “G_D celebrates in your differntness” … Totally unbiblical. Satan is hard at work…and successful with these mainline denomination congregations. None of them seem to heed; “beware of wolves in sheeps clothing”…

  13. Finious
    December 16, 2010 at 11:11 pm

    Chris said,
    Finious can’t distinguish between a Parable and a Command. Muslims would love to find Jesus behaving like Muhammad and ordering followers to kill people. It isn’t going to happen. Jesus told to his own disciple, “Put your sword back in its place. All who take the sword will die by the sword.” (Matthew 26:52)


    Many (of us)Christians have never read the whole Bible, and are not aware of the immoral teachings that are found in it.
    New Testament morality has many problems.

    Luke 14:26 tells us we cannot be disciples unless we hate our father, mother, and children. What kind of family values is that? (And you cannot get around that verse by telling me that it means “love less” instead of “hate.”

    Matt.10:34 says, “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” Do you agree that the world needs yet another sword?

    MT 10:21 “… the brother shall deliver up his brother to death, and the father his child, … children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.”

    MT 10:35-36 “For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law a man’s enemies will be the members of his own family.”

    Many (of us) Christians have declared that the Old Testament regulations died when Jesus arrived, but three key verses can once again tell us that this simply isn’t a valid deduction.

    “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:7).

    Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” (I Samuel 15:2-3)

    You may be concerned where this is leading. Perhaps to you the Bible is the source of moral judgment. It is your only hope to find your way in life.
    You may wonder how anybody could attempt to chart his course through life without its moral compass. And you may be concerned that we are undercutting that hope. It just means that it is okay to question what we read. I am for high moral standards. I am in favor of kindness, and love, and the rule of law. I am not convinced that the standard of morality that I see in the Bible “exceptable”.

    • Nick
      December 17, 2010 at 12:21 am

      Bo-ring. You may as well be writing about the book of Mormon. Or Hobbes’ ‘Leviathan’. Or Machiavelli’s ‘The Prince’. Or … I know, why not the Koran? After all, many people, both ‘Muslims’ and non-Muslims, haven’t read it, and are not aware of the immoral teachings that are in it.

      Isn’t that so?

      I take it that you have actually read the Koran, and that you are aware of the immoral teachings that are in it?

    • New Crusader
      December 17, 2010 at 1:28 am


      I examined what you said point by point and followed your link. The only thing I could say in brief is; Seriously man – you need to stop sniffing so much glue.

    • eib
      December 17, 2010 at 8:58 am

      You’ve brought up a number of versus that do not command violence. Instead, they tell about the conflicts that will arise when more people become Christians.
      The sword is, in fact, the conflict between the new and the old.
      “go and smite Amalek” sounds like a convenient imperative to murder, doesn’t it?
      But there is a problem– the imperative is one given not to the reader in the here and now, but in the there and then.
      I call false equivalency.
      The Quran is not the Bible.
      And the Bible is certainly not the Quran.

  14. Finious
    December 17, 2010 at 8:41 am

    I shall now show various other contradictions which are present in the Koran.


  15. Chris
    December 17, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Finious seems to think that every mention of violence or hatred in the New Testament is a command for Christians to perpetrate this violence on non-Christians. This is not the case. Let’s take Finious’ “proof texts” one at a time:

    Luke 14:26 — The use of “hate” in this context is an emphatic way of expressing total detachment. The verse also says a follower must hate his own life. Is that advocating suicide? Hardly.

    Matthew 10:34 (and 35-36) — The sword in this context is the sword of division. Believers are told they will find these divisions even in their own households, but still they must “take up the cross,” meaning take a different path, not a sword. The passage also echoes a prophecy from Micah 7:6 which the people of that time knew well.

    Matthew 10:21 — This is a prophecy of the violent opposition to Christianity, not what Christians would be doing.

    Matthew 5:7 (should be 5:17) — Yes, Jesus came to fulfill the Mosaic law but in a loving way. Instead of forbidding murder, Jesus forbade hatred of ones brother. Instead of forbidding adultery, Jesus forbade even lusting for a woman. Instead of “an eye for a eye,” Jesus commanded people to turn the cheek. Sadly, all of those old hateful Mosaic commands have been preserved in the Quran. See Surahs 17:33, 4:3 & 4:24, and 2:178.

    The morality of the New Testament makes the Quran appear barbaric. Many of the commands actually violate international law, such as raping captives (Surah 33:50) and taking booty (48:20)

  16. julian
    December 17, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    A breath of fresh air to see someone lead. I wish some leaders would step up in Canada & USA .

    Australian Prime Minister does it again!!

    This woman should be appointed Queen of the World.. Truer words have never been spoken.

    It took a lot of courage for this woman to speak what she had to say for the world to hear. The retribution could be phenomenal, but at least she was willing to take a stand on her and Australia ‘s beliefs.

    The whole world needs a leader like this!


    Prime Minister Julia Gillard – Australia

    Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks..

    Separately, Gillard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying she supported spy agencies monitoring the nation’s mosques. Quote:


    I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. ‘

    ‘This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom’

    ‘We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!’

    ‘Most Australians (but not me) believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.’

    ‘We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.’

    ‘This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, ‘THE RIGHT TO LEAVE’.’

    ‘If you aren’t happy here then LEAVE. We didn’t force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.’

    Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves in Canada & USA , WE will find the courage to start speaking and voicing the same truths.

    If you agree please SEND THIS ON and ON, to as many people as you know

  17. Finious
    December 18, 2010 at 7:49 am

    Koran- Sura 33:50 The Parties (Al-Ahzãb)
    33:50]” O prophet, we made lawful for you your wives to whom you have paid their due dowry, or what you already have, as granted to you by GOD. Also lawful for you in marriage are the daughters of your father’s brothers, the daughters of your father’s sisters, the daughters of your mother’s brothers, the daughters of your mother’s sisters, who have emigrated with you. Also, if a believing woman gave herself to the prophet – by forfeiting the dowry – the prophet may marry her without a dowry, if he so wishes. However, her forfeiting of the dowry applies only to the prophet, and not to the other believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses or what they already have. This is to spare you any embarrassment. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.”

    The Victory KORAN(Al-Fatt-h) 48:20]
    “GOD has promised you many spoils that you will gain. He thus advanced some benefits for you in this life, and He has withheld the people’s hands of aggression against you, and has rendered this a sign for the believers. He thus guides you in a straight path.”

    These are chapters in Koran that you’r talking about.

    Slavery in the NewTestament.
    You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.

    In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn’t know they were doing anything wrong.
    The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” (Luke 12:47-48 NLT

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17

    The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?
    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


    • admin
      December 18, 2010 at 9:27 am

      The Bible is made up of stories of those times, while the Koran states the actions of Mohammad are to be follow for all times.

      One again, Christians are not on a worldwide movement trying to subjugate all under a barbaric set of religious laws, but Muslims are. You will not change the focus of this site.

    • eib
      December 18, 2010 at 12:12 pm

      You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.
      end quote.

      If that is the case, then why has slavery been abandoned in the Western world?

    • eib
      December 18, 2010 at 12:14 pm

      For Muslims, Mohammed is the model of all behavior and morality.
      Jesus never owned any slaves.
      He never captured people and enslaved them.
      He never took any territory– never invaded or conquered any place.
      He never killed anyone, nor did he arrange to have anyone killed.
      False equivalency.

    • admin
      December 18, 2010 at 2:18 pm

      Here is what 33:50 says.

      YUSUFALI: O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
      PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father’s side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father’s side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother’s side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother’s side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage – a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers – We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess – that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
      SHAKIR: O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her– specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

      * تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
      { يٰأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّبِيُّ إِنَّآ أَحْلَلْنَا لَكَ أَزْوَاجَكَ ٱللاَّتِيۤ آتَيْتَ أُجُورَهُنَّ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ يَمِينُكَ مِمَّآ أَفَآءَ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ وَبَنَاتِ عَمِّكَ وَبَنَاتِ عَمَّاتِكَ وَبَنَاتِ خَالِكَ وَبَنَاتِ خَالاَتِكَ ٱللاَّتِي هَاجَرْنَ مَعَكَ وَٱمْرَأَةً مُّؤْمِنَةً إِن وَهَبَتْ نَفْسَهَا لِلنَّبِيِّ إِنْ أَرَادَ ٱلنَّبِيُّ أَن يَسْتَنكِحَهَا خَالِصَةً لَّكَ مِن دُونِ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ قَدْ عَلِمْنَا مَا فَرَضْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ فِيۤ أَزْوَاجِهِـمْ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ لِكَيْلاَ يَكُونَ عَلَيْكَ حَرَجٌ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً }

      O Prophet! Indeed We have made lawful for you your wives whom you have given their dowries and what your right hand owns, of those whom God has given you as spoils of war, from the disbelievers, [whom you have] taken captive, such as Safiyya and Juwayriyya, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you, as opposed to those who did not emigrate, and any believing woman if she gift herself [in marriage] to the Prophet and if the Prophet desire to take her in marriage, and ask for her hand in marriage without paying [her] a dowry — a privilege for you exclusively, not for the [rest of the] believers (nikāh, ‘marriage’, when expressed by the term hiba, ‘gift’, denotes [marriage] without dowry). Indeed We know what We have imposed upon them, namely, the believers, with respect to their wives, in the way of rulings, to the effect that they should not take more than four wives and should only marry with [the consent of] a legal guardian, [the presence of] witnesses and [the payment of] a dowry, and, with respect to, what their right hands own, of slavegirls, in the way of purchase or otherwise, so that the handmaiden be one lawful for her master, such as a slavegirl belonging to the People of the Scripture (kitābiyya), and not a Magian or an idolater, and that she should be ascertained [as not carrying child] with the necessary waiting period (istibrā’) before copulation; so that (li-kaylā is semantically connected to what came before [this last statement]) there may be no [unnecessary] restriction for you, [no] constraint in marriage [for you]. And God is Forgiving, of what is difficult to guard against, Merciful, in giving dispensations [allowing for latitude] in this respect.

      Take the games somewhere else Finious.

    • admin
      December 18, 2010 at 3:16 pm

      From that site.

      “As Muslims, we do not embrace the pedophilia, rape, terrorism…”

      That is lie, after lie, after lie and I have proven this over and over on this site. Although some Muslims do not consider the taking of sex slaves as rape, because it is lawful under Islam. Which just goes to show you how afraid most Muslims are to question Islam.

  18. Chris
    December 18, 2010 at 10:32 am

    Finious has found a takiyya-filled translation of the Quran that obscures the international war crimes commanded by the Prophet of Islam. I hope enough readers of Loganswarning have their own versions of the Quran to see through the deception.

    The crime of Surah 33:50 is raping captives of war. Finious’s translation describes it as “what you already have, as granted to you by GOD.” Let’s try some more reliable translations:

    Muhammad Asad: “captives of war”
    N.J. Dawood: “Slave-girls whom God has given you as booty”
    Yusuf Ali: “prisoners of war”
    Mhd. Pickthall: “those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war”
    Muhsin Khan: “those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses”

    The crime of Surah 48:20 is taking spoils of war. Finious’s translation says, God has promise you many spoils that you will gain.”

    Here are the more reliable translations:

    Muhammad Asad: “war-gains”
    N.J. Dawood: “rich booty”
    Yusuf Ali: “many gains”
    Mhd. Pickthall: “booty that ye will capture”
    Muhsin Khan: “abundant spoils that you will capture”

    While modern translations of the Bible strive to make the text clearer and more understandable to the reader, modern translations of the Quran hide what is clearly offensive about Islam. Why must Quran translators hide the truth?

  19. Chris
    December 18, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    Finious continues in his futile attempts to tarnish Christianity by taking on the subject of slavery. While slavery was a given in the First Century when the New Testament was written, Christian writers did nothing to promote or advocate slavery. In fact, some of the earliest Christians were slaves. Phillip baptized an “Ethiopian eunuch.” (Acts 8:26-40). The Apostle’s letter to Philemon was an appeal for him to welcome back the run-away Christian slave, Onesimus, and treat him as a “brother in the Lord.” Paul instructed Timothy that “Slaves belonging to Christian master must not despise them, for they are their brothers.” (I Timothy 6:2) The early Christian church services were held at night so slaves could worship after they had completed their duties. (See Acts 20:7-12.)
    Compare all of that with the Quran that authorizes raping captured slave women (Surah 33:50) and says God will forgive slaves who have been forced into prostitution by their masters. (Surah 24:34). Slavery was abolished in the West in the 19th Century due to Christian efforts. Slavery continues in the Middle East today, as witnessed by the release of 603 Black slaves from their Muslim Arab masters in the Sudan just this month. Has any Muslim organization or nation condemned the slavery in the Sudan?
    Once again, Finious confuses the Parable of the Faithful Servant with a Command to beat slaves. In the Parable in Luke 12:35-48, the Master is God and the servants or slaves are Mankind. Mankind who knowingly does evil will be severely punished, but those who do not know what the Master wants will be treated more leniently. Perhaps FInious should take heed from this Parable, as Islamic doctrine states that Jesus will be the judge on Judgment Day, per Bukhari, Vol. 3, No. 425 and Vol. 4, No. 657.

  20. admin
    December 19, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    Hey Finious, what part of take the games somewhere else do you not understand? Yes there is slave trafficking here, but it is NOT allowed under US law. But slavery IS allowed under Islamic Law. Slight difference there. This circular conversation is over, and this site will stay focused on exposing the threat of Islam.

    BTW, I really do not care what you think of me or America.

  21. boniferous
    December 19, 2010 at 9:39 pm

    After viewing the comments under this article I am more affirmed that some things are best left to the agnostics, atheist and secular world. Quite simply, religious outfits do not always put common sense (wisdom) before their emotional attachments (alleged spiritual essence).

  22. AmericanMe
    December 20, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    The Presbyterian Church will eventually meld with Islam. In Houston we have had so far that I know of : The largest Presbyterian Church in town read the Koran in the sanctuary on 9-11 and holds frequent “interfaith meetings, another affluent Presbyterian chuch has put korans in the bench backs. The Presbyterians are damned.

    • admin
      December 20, 2010 at 6:34 pm

      Please tell them to alert us when a Mosque reciprocates.

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